I think it goes without saying that, for many of us, faith is difficult to come by these days. And yet, it’s required of so much of what we do. In the case of the artist’s work, as it were, that’s especially true.
Back to that in a minute.
I can’t remember exactly how and when I first came across Cain Culto’s work, which he described to me as “rap, pop music, experimental Latin fusion stuff.” What I unequivocally recall is how struck I was by his admirable – nay, transcendent – authenticity and boldness of expression. And without rehashing the history of his career up to this moment, his layering of faith into that boldness somehow makes it even more heroic and genuine.
Speaking with Cain face-to-face makes his integrity, which already shines through in his current body of work, even more undeniable. He’s thoughtful. He’s brilliant. He’s happy to talk – almost about anything, it seems, from the inevitable restlessness (or restfulness, depending on the day) that comes from prolific creativity, to the best and worst of times brought on by technology, to – of course – the faith of pursuing not just one’s art, but also, the faith of confronting who we are both with and without it.
Amanda Zantal-Wiener: So. Earlier this morning, you posted on your Instagram story that rest is kind of a challenging concept for you. Can you speak more on that?
Cain Culto: Yeah, I mean, I'm just really ambitious. And I have a lot of dreams and aspirations, and love for the craft of creating. You know, I look back in different seasons of my life, and I've gone on so many different arcs. But I feel like the constant in my life is just this need to make things, create, and express.
And so that's what drives me: just the love of it. But it's also a lot of work. I have rigorous and intense deadlines that I set and impose upon myself, so I do have a tendency to be a workaholic. And sometimes I exhaust myself. And then there's times, especially as things are building, and you're bringing a team in, you just want to keep pushing. But I've just had to learn that, you know, it's, it's about cycles. It's about the push and pull of rest and work.
And so, yeah, it's been fun. Touring has been cool because I feel like touring puts things into perspective. Things are so chaotic, so quick, fast paced, it almost raises your capacity of the amount of stress you're able to hold. you have to be really creative in the ways that you fit in moments of rest while you're traveling. I haven't figured it out yet.
But it's something that I know is important for sustainability in my career, because this last year, I really was so ambitious in specifically short-form content, wanting to create mini music videos for the algorithm and to post to really get myself out there. Ambitiously, I'm doing a lot of that work by myself … so it's just a lot of workload, in general, for all artists now.
"To be an indie artist, there's so much expected of you. And so easy to burn out. The return on investment takes so long. And so yeah, it's been a journey."
Now, thankfully, I have people coming in, supporting me on different things. And I'm learning how to delegate. That's a whole new perspective and skill set to learn.
AZW: I'm really glad you brought up that thing about artists having to be content machines.
CC: Yeah, yeah, literally.
AZW: I usually bring that up. You brought it up for me. One of the things that comes up in interviews a lot – and your whole concept of “my rest is my creativity” – is the idea that many of us are conditioned, thanks to capitalism, etc., to believe that being an artist is not a “real job.” I'm just curious how you think about that, especially as you're starting to see more and more success.
CC: Yeah, I mean, it's a vocation, right? It's my purpose to create and there are so many different ways that that serves society, besides just capital. I've had to work so many other jobs as this has been growing, and [I was] finally able to quit my service job last year. I'm just grateful for that, little steps here and there.
But you know, it's always hard as an indie artist. So yeah, I don't think people should be discouraged. I think I did for a little bit, because I used to be in a small Victorian Christian indie band and I saw some success with that. Thankfully, I was living off the residuals of that for a good four years of my life afterwards … that's what kind of allowed me to only work part-time in the service industry, and then be able to devote time to building this project year by year, just baby steps.
I think comparison can always be so discouraging. Everyone's on their own timeline, you know? So I always tell myself, cheer on your friends as they're having their moments, and yours will come in your own way and in your own time.
AZW: So when we think about the fact that you were explaining that, for you, rest is your work, how would you, at this point in your career, define the difference between what rest looks like and what work looks like?
CC: Yeah, because it's true. My work can be restful, right? Sometimes the creative process is really energizing and fulfilling. But then, sometimes it's so draining, because there's so much friction of trying to attain a specific sound... And sometimes it can be quite frustrating for me. Talking about capitalism, sometimes, once you've monetized your art form, it's hard for it to still feel fulfilling, in a way, because there are all these expectations and things built around it.
So for me, what I still love and what's really restful for me – the deadlines aren't restful, the deadlines and committing to those. And I'm very adamant about that, because I hate things that drag on and sitting on an idea for too long. I hate it. But I love crafting things. I'm a musician, but I'm also a sculpture artist, and I construct my own props and costumes. That’s fun for me, something where I'm off a phone or a screen, creating something. So much of music, like video editing, is just sitting in front of a screen. So I love when I'm able to go outside and just craft something with my hands. That's restful for me.
And I designed my own merch and all those things … graphic design, too. I keep most of my props. They become decor in my house, and little totems of a single that I released. It's kind of special to have one thing to ground it in the real world.
AZW: So, I have to ask about AI. Where do you even begin with that? I think a lot of us have been paying attention to the class action lawsuit.
CC: Yes, I saw that.
AZW: You've been making music for how many years now?
CC: Probably like eight, nine, 10 years.
AZW: Okay, so you’ve seen how the Spotifys of the world, for instance, came into this with the promise of democratizing music. That changed everything.
CC: Yeah, it did.
AZW: But I don't think it took too long before a lot of us kind of started saying, “Well, wait a minute. If it's free for us, then what does that mean for the artists?” So tell me how that has impacted you, or at least just your observations on it.
CC: I'm loving to see bigger artists like SZA posting, really critiquing it, mainly just of the plagiarism and someone's work being used to feed an algorithm that you didn't consent to. That's really disheartening, you know? I don't know. It's something that I worry about. It does feel like AI is inevitable. The next generation, they're saying, will be born into a society where AI is just integrated on every level. And that's all they will ever know. So it's like, okay, it's happening. It's like the Industrial Revolution. Or even iPhones, right? We all have one, and it's caused so much stress and harm to the human, our evolution. We're not evolutionarily ready for phones. And we're just pushing that even further with AI.
It's going to fully transform society. So I think that's why it's important right now that we are putting safeguards around it with legislation. I think it's time to. It's happening. And I hope to see encouraging news about that. I hope the administration will hear the voices of artists and people that are critical. It seems discouraging now. But, you know, hopefully things turn the other way.
AZW: There's so much of that that makes me go back to the idea of your craft and your art, and how it's just very hard to separate the creativity from the rest. All of these industrial revolutions that we've seen since the very first one. What these revolutions and new developments in technology or industry have promised us is that they'll make work so much easier. And it'll give us all this leisure time to create, to spend with our families. And yet, you know, empirically, we have less leisure time than ever. You said it yourself. That's not exclusive to artists. So what do you make of all that?
CC: Yeah. Well, society is always – it feels like at least every generation – it's about to collapse, right? I also think we all have a choice to participate in some ways. I have these ambitions, and I want to scale my art to a certain level. But at the same time, you can always check out. It doesn't have to be that, and you don't have to find fulfillment in monetizing your passion always. I was happy even working at Sprouts in the vitamin department. You can find happiness wherever it is. And I think I'm on a slow living kick right now, or fantasizing it – how do I, in principle, even if I am right now in my life, going at a very high-speed pace? I know it's for a season of my life.
"...you don't have to find fulfillment in monetizing your passion always. I was happy even working at Sprouts in the vitamin department. You can find happiness wherever it is."
… I have a mission, I have a very specific message and something, an itch that I need to get out of me and put it in the world. But once I've scratched that, I don't intend to be chasing this my whole life. I think society also conditions us to want more. And so it's a thought experiment for me right now. It's fun. I'm hoping to be able to live off my art eventually and support my partner. But if not – and my partner has also said this – [if] this becomes too much, we can quit. You can work at Sprouts again. And like, we were happy then.
I think a lot of our issues are coming from, yes, a systemic [place], but also, our collective mindset as humanity, I think, is quite broken. And I think it stems – all the legislation, all the practice, all the systems – it stems from something broken within all of us that needs to expand.
And I think rejecting that is radical in many ways. And so I try to do it in my own way, as I can, through my art. But just in principle, I think we can all choose what we choose, what we want to value in our life, and build a life around that.
But it's hard. You know, I'm a single young guy. I can, you know, support myself, but then I empathize for single mothers and people that have children that need to feed kids. That's a different situation. And the fact that we don't have livable wages is just like, perverted, honestly.
So yeah, that's why I do advocate for: the system does need to change. And then, how do we choose to value different things than we have as a society? I don't know, it's, it's discouraging. Yeah, it is, honestly.
AZW: A lot of people have pointed out that, especially with the talking point that “AI is inevitable,” and “well, we have to invest in it because it's inevitable.” And yet, things that you were pointing to – making a livable wage as an artist, basic universal income …
CC: Well, it's a tool. AI isn't a tool. And I think it's all about how we use tools. And unfortunately, it just seems whenever we get a new technological advancement, humanity, we exploit it in a way, and make promises of how it's going to make society better and make everything more equitable. And then, no, we use it for war. We use it to exploit. Sometimes, there are developments in health, but everything is always corrupted by the people at the top.
It almost feels like that's the story of humanity in many ways. But I do hope – there's a part of me that hopes – that through art and through thought leaders, that we can actually, in principle, change what we actually want to be, collectively. And I think it's slow progress. But I like to think that our collective consciousness is slowly awakening and healing. That's my belief. That's why I create. I hope to contribute to that.
But it's little steps. And I think it's through art. I mean, I feel like the way that I serve that is through my art, and through my messaging, and through the little seeds I plant in my music that I hope people pick up on of the world that I'm envisioning, that it could be different. And then, as I gain more platform, privilege, and resources, I hope to invest that back into real grassroots movements. We're not there yet. I do as I can, but I'm still a starving artist.
AZW: If I can play devil's advocate: There are people who just don't know any better. They “write” a song with AI and they're like, “This is so cool. Look at me, I'm a musician.” No. [But] it's hard to learn a new instrument. It's hard to learn, to train to be a vocalist, to learn the technology to be a DJ. So I wonder how much of that goes back to the idea of being an artist or a musician, making that actual investment into being good at it.
CC: Yeah, my concerns – and maybe I don't know enough – but my concerns are, “What is feeding the AI algorithms?” And if people are consenting to that, that, to me, is an important conversation. But maybe this is fringe and kind of controversial.
Before we even had digital photography … you would paint and artists would hold that in high regard, right? And then, well, we can just take a photo of it, you know, in a moment. And so I think the future is interesting. I'm not fully against using AI within music production; honestly, I think there is a use for that. I think we need to be really aware of how it's being sourced and the consent of all that.
There is a use for that. And it'll only force us to find different ways of creating expression that creates real value for us. … It just will require more intention, because if we can create and compose something so easily with AI, then it has less value. So then, as creatives, we have to find, “What is the next means of expression that we as a society place value on?” So it's just going to change industries radically, right?
In the same way that photography became huge, and now, now everyone is a photographer with their iPhone, right? And so, is that the death of photography? No. We just evolve, and we find different ways.
… So then we move into, “How do we curate things in our own context?” I think that'll happen for music … creativity and innovation will always push us into new places. And there'll be new ways that we can't even imagine now, of art that we find deeply valuable and ways to create art. With AI, without it, the rejection of it, the embrace of it, the meeting in the middle … I think musicianship will always live. There are people who are purists [and say], “Oh, electronic music is, you know, there's no soul in it.” … No, there's so much soul in it. It's all how you integrate it, right? So like, with my work, you're hearing these 808s and these aggressive, distorted [sounds], and then I'm playing the fiddle. So it's future, and it's also historical. It's Appalachian folk music. It's also Colombian folk drums. I'm sampling them, chopping them, tracking my own, like, I'm very much creating a hodgepodge of all the things that inspire me.
And so maybe AI will be involved in that. But I need to be aware of the ethics behind it.
AZW: Yeah. And I think to dismiss electronic music as having no soul completely ignores the history of where it came from, and why things like raves exist.
CC: Yeah, but people thought that at first, right? Because it's something new. And then, you know, well, this is real music. It's like, there's value here, too. Obviously, there isn’t the ethical implications and situation that we're dealing with AI specifically. But I think people always reject something at first if it's new and scary. But then you find some people will choose to find a way to integrate it in a healthy way. Other people will use it to exploit it.
But … like the generation that's about to be born will be born into a fully AI-integrated society, I can't even really imagine that. I don't know what that'll look like. Part of me is like, okay, maybe there are wonderful aspects of that or certain things, but then maybe there's like really dark, probably dark, but that's where we are now, right? iPhones, the development of that one day people were like, “Oh, my gosh, everyone's having a phone.” And it's beautiful, right? The connectivity that we're having because of this iPhone is amazing. And there's also a dark side to it.
Is that just not always in every moment in history? I'm excited to see the leaders that arise in that generation who choose to criticize the system, who choose to envision a better reality. They always come up. There are always lights in each generation that do this for us. So … I don't lose hope.
AZW: Tell me about how the Pride Tour came to be.
CC: It's funny, because my kind of coming up last year started right [around] Pride. So I missed all the Pride bookings as my song was kind of gaining momentum. And so this year, I was like, I really want to play Pride shows. I want to play this song that is so bold and proud of my sexuality and my history, of my queerness. I was like, “It needs to have a pride run.”
… And it's been sick. It's been so fun. And this is my first time, really, like bringing the vision of this project into the real world. So much of it has just been on the algorithm on social media. And you feel the love, and you see comments of people, of how deeply the work impacts them. But it feels so different when you get to put that to real faces. I've been really humbled and moved by how emotional people get with my work, how deeply even my story [resonates]. I think people have gone through their own journeys. And I'm so vocal about mine. So they see themselves in my story.
And in many ways, I'm creating my own community. And that's been part of my story of just kind of experiencing rejection from certain spaces because of my queerness, because of me speaking up about certain things. And so it's cool that me continuing that journey in my life of speaking up about the things that matter to me has gotten me kicked out of many places, but now helping me find my true community, my people.
AZW: At this point, you've done a lot of interviews about what you're doing or creating what you're creating now. I'm just curious … what does faith look like to you at this point?
CC: Yeah, I do have faith. I think people may describe it in so many different ways. And we all find purpose and hope in this life through different means. But I do think faith is crucial. I think it’s a very human thing. Evolutionarily, we need to believe in something bigger than ourselves. … Some people may call it God, you know, whatever it is, this thing that grounds you and helps you push forward into hope.
So Christian of me, but like, what is it? I think Paul says in the Bible, “There's nothing greater than these things like faith, hope, and love.” And it's like, yeah, it's love and light. But what did the moms have in there? “Live, laugh, love.” We can laugh at it, ironically. But if we kind of get to the essence of … these things that give life purpose. So I have faith in humanity. Sometimes I lose it, honestly, but in the end, I do think love prevails. That's also Christian. [But] love does triumph in the end. And so I choose to focus on that.
…my two EPs coming out are called “Occulto.” I'm fascinated by esoteric traditions and the occult. I think even science begins to prove this … the things that we focus on and put our attention to, we draw into our life. So that's why I focus on and bring attention to the injustices in the world. … If we are constantly putting our energy towards the doom and the gloom, it almost magnifies the power of that in the world.
… And so it's about choosing to believe in the power of love, and then it becomes powerful by the belief in it. And goodness is still real in the world. That's a principle I live by, my faith is in the power of the mind, and an intention and how … in some ways, it's more powerful than we realize when things begin to align in the world, simply by a thought. And you're like, “Did the universe reflect that back to me?”
It found me as I was chasing it. I started chasing, and then that thing met me. I've just seen that happen so many times in my life. And I'm more confident in that as a principle of the universe.
AZW: If you could name one thing that would make it easier, or more joyful to be an independent artist, what would it be?
CC: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah, set boundaries. And I think for me, it was how to be practical. … I think I was getting so discouraged, putting so much effort into creating content – not even content – music videos, it was at the time, and not getting momentum. And it was because I wasn't really marketing my work effectively. So I had to figure out, “Okay, I do have to market myself. So how do I make the marketing aspect of this job – which is not as fun or creatively fulfilling for me – how do I make it creatively fulfilling?”
And so it's like, how do we make social media an art form? And I've tried to do that with my short-form content. There's so much thought behind it. There's curation aesthetically, because visuals are so important to me. And I feel proud of it. … It's not practical for me to spend so much of my budget on a music video that no one's gonna see; I need to get it in front of them through short-form. So how do I make short-form feel artful in the same way that a music video would, and still feel [like I'm] scratching some of that creative fulfillment?
…don't resist what needs to be done practically, but find a way to be fulfilled in it. And that requires a certain level of creativity and thinking outside of the box sometimes, but there's always a way. … A lot of independent artists are always complaining, and maybe I'm a part of that sometimes, too. I think we're allowed to. But I also saw a study showing that actually complaining about something does give a certain release. That's helpful. But also, it trains the brain to not prioritize or give most of its function toward problem solving. Does that make sense? There's something about it that the brain … it gets in a loop of complaining where it's like, “No, there's a stressor here.” So then, immediately, instead of focusing on the negativity or the impossibilities, how do we look at what is possible? And it requires inspiration … true inspiration.
I believe inspiration comes from this greater thing than us. … It's channeling from a source, from whatever that is, as creatives, whatever people, whether spiritual or not, we're getting it from – somewhere deeper within us or beyond us. How do we tap into that to find inspiration?
We don't always need to be bitching. Sometimes we can just be artists and actually innovate and like create new worlds. And we have the capacity to do so. I'm saying that now, but then I'm always going to complain and feel overworked. It's both, right? It's duality. It's like, you have to release the frustration, but don't stay in it. Find the path forward. And that's what I'm trying to be this year.